polyamory and christianity
Jase:-but reading through it so Emily will finally know what the heck it's all about. You're taking somebody's body in your mouth, and so there's some phalic-. We have two very special guests; Rev. Jase:We'll expect a bibliography at the end of this. Jase: We've been training her. I actually think it's more similar than--. Jase:It's great. My gosh. Seems kind of obvious to all the people that pastors shouldn't do that, but there's a groundswell of people saying that, "Well, the focus shouldn't be on sex before marriage, the focus should be on things like consent and everything afterwards. Polygamy in Christianity - Wikipedia Is it still possible for someone who's religious to come out as polyamorous or do you think that they're just going to have a really difficult time doing that? Ive really liked it. Why, or why not? People know these quotes from the Bible, right? It's the most dangerous book ever written, come on. I'm just like, hell. Wow. There's all these things out there, like stigma, misunderstanding, backlash and that may potentially come from their community. Like in my denomination that I work in, the ELCA, the liberal Lutherans, there's this guideline for pastors basically that says you can have sex outside of marriage. God came down as Immanuel to pay that price because he is loving, merciful, and just. Christian Polyamory I am (m48) and married 24 years to (f45). Austin:The lectionary is a scheduled set of readings that churches do on a three-year cycle to hit most of the bible in church readings over the course of three years, so most mainline churches are going to be preaching on similar scriptures any given Sunday. Yes, it's like a theological jargon for the narrative of the Bible, the things that you hear. Oh, God, I love when Jesus says "bush". The relationship may include finances, emotions, and physicality, but is always more romantic than a friendship. R. Mechelke (he/him/his) J.D. I think it can be really misleading because we think the Bible must be that same sort of guidebook. Jennifer Martin acknowledges that some people don't understand how Christianity and polyamory can co-exist. Most sexual ethics that are being debated in most denominations right now are just around homosexuality. Christianity and Polyamory : r/polyamory - Reddit In so doing, people are trampled on. Christianity in polyamory : r/polyamory - Reddit We need marriage in society because we need God, and a gracious reminder of his intentions for us, and his covenant with us. I think there's at least in this ELCA, liberal Lutheran wing of the church, I can see at least in the leadership of this shift moving from caring so much both where you put your genitals. J.D. Jase: All right, the next thing you can do that actually really helps us a lot more than I think most people realize is to take a moment and to write us a review on iTunes or on Stitcher, wherever you listen to podcasts that let's you write reviews. Polyamory is also different from swinging or open relationships, though these do overlap. Yes, Im in the thick of it I guess and Im actively working on trying to break that down. Rev. The first one though is free with us with your promo code. Then they go through and then there's already good solid research that is going through this, it's looked at the nuance of all of those passages that you were referring to earlier, Jase. When she died, who would be her husband in heaven? The thing I would say is you mentioned this religious lifestyle, is it compatible with polyamory? I thought it was the greatest story ever told. family has been a long part of the church and it forces congregations to re-think their values. Austin:I would guess both of us are well enough versed that we could go through those one by one, but we could also point to written materials out there that people could just sit and read on their own and not run through them one on one. No one person can speak for all of Christianity, there are lots of different flavors and varieties, but even within each denomination there's actually very little discussion around polyamory in most churches. Emily: I so appreciate both of you saying all of this, because, again, from an outsider's perspective, what I know about Christianity is it's evangelical, and that you're supposed to abide by what this book says. Someone has to be at the head of the line, and the needs and feelings of at least one partner must be sacrificed at least some of the time. Mechelke: That's always fun to find. Austin: One of the other things that impedes progress in terms of what pastors talk about is also that a lot of pastors went to grad school a long time ago. I just had a quick side note. Polyamory and Christianity : Christianity - Reddit Prior to us meeting, he had some physical . What Christ said about love your neighbor was not qualified with the word unless or any exceptions regarding sexual orientation, race, political affiliation, or religious beliefs. I have not been too close to any faith and feel extreme need to be closer to God through the bible. His sacrificial love sets the perfect standard to which a Christian imperfectly aspires. . At least, mostly in the Old Testament. In Christianity or at least the history of Christianity, the best religious lifestyle was this monastic life. Before we can figure out what we as Christians say about polyamorous relationships, we have to consult what God says in His Word. J.D. We've actually said similar things - if you're in parts of the country where it's hard to find a polyamory meet up or something like that, that it's worth it if you have to drive a few hours even to have some kind of community maybe once a month or every couple of months or just something to actually have a little bit of time where you can talk without constantly having to monitor what am I saying? How do you define it? Mainly because I come from a very traditional Christian family and I know my grandfather wouldn't approve of me just based on his faith, but if I had a good bible-based argument, maybe he would hear me out. All of it. Whether Christian or not, everyone has noticed the cultural shift marriage is undoubtedly on a steady decline. Polyamory does not mean loving various people, like family or friends. I am new to the realm of faith though and already being poly, do not want to stir more personal controversy in life. Yes, a little bit more intimate, a little bit more focused, and a little bit more real-time processing with a bunch of different people from all over the place, it's really fun. She attends worship weekly, prays, and reads the Bible. Right, Austin might be better to talk about socially what's going on in the church. Something that Jase and Dedeker have both said to me is even if you're not practicing religion, it seems like there is like a need for community and that space still. Why, or why not? There's two of them doing this particular sermon and the other one talks about maybe a few passages in the Bible making parallels to polyamory with the way that God loves us and the way that God teaches us to love. Mechelke:I'm JD Mechelke and I'm from Minneapolis Minnesota, I'm a grad student in theology at Luther Seminary in St. Paul. Dedeker: Emily, I told you there are many instances of mass circumcision in the Bible. Dedeker: Let me just say I just have to interject, to say that this is so exciting. Here you are running a polyamory podcast. Also, Polygamy almost always entails a man taking more than one wife, while polyamory is much more egalitarian. We're talking with them about their takes on the current state of . Most sexual ethics that are being debated in most denominations right now are just around homosexuality. : Let me just say I just have to interject, to say that this is so exciting. Theyre poly. What Should Christians Say about Polyamorous Relationships? - iBelieve Austin:I'm Austin Adkinson, I am a United Methodist pastor in Seattle. It's my opinion that in the Bible sexuality is many times negatively tied to economics in some little harmful ways. Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're talking about polyamory, sexuality, and Christianity. 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I want to say about the subscription thing is that because I'm traveling a lot like, when I'm in the states, I'll reactivate my subscription so that I'm getting the new heads and I also do the refill of the toothpaste as well because the prices are great. Consider those growing up in a two-parent household. Your reviews about our show, talking about what it is you get out of it, why you listen to the show, what benefit youve gotten from it, will really help other people to make that decision and decide, "That applies to me too. Well, I don't know, who cares, but because sin in the Bible is very different than in ethics. Contributing Author Published: Jun 14, 2021 Whether Christian or not, everyone has noticed the cultural shift marriage is undoubtedly on a steady decline. Jase:As far as applying a similar way of looking at this to polyamory, the only thing that I've found about this at all are there's one sermon that someone sent me a recording of online and a couple writings that are part of the United Church of Christ that talk about polyamory. Verse 24 is where Jesus has this answer, "Jesus said to them; "For when they raise from the dead, they neither married nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. Dedeker: Here you are running a polyamory podcast. Mechelke:I could speak to the theologicalship that's going on, but Austin might be more equipped to deal with what's actually going on in the church because my church is super gay, we've been marrying same-sex couples since the '80s-. Really, what it tends to come down to is there are large sections of the church that get focused on the Bible being the literal word of God and inherent and you can't change it in anyway and it's absolute. At our $7 a month level, you get access to that and ad-free episodes that come out a day early. Not too many of us are "out.". If you get value out of our show, if something that you've heard or some resources that we recommended has been helpful to you in some way, we would really appreciate getting your support, so that we can keep this show running and keep getting this information, these resources out there. I think it can be really misleading because we think the Bible must be that same sort of guidebook. J.D. You start to think, "That's kind of erotic and yet it's evangelical." When we read the Bible we have to ask that question I think. "Peace be with you! There are a number of search engines out there to find this kind of thing, if you're specifically trying to find a church. Again, you can to. Christianity What Does the Bible Say About Polyamory? Mechelke:I would say that, a simple way to think about it, when you read the Bible, the Bible isn't always saying this is the way things should be. For me, it's not even the finding the Bible passages that might justify it. In the same ways that a lot of churches have moved past and understand women clergy where it was thought to be that the Bible excluded that as well. Rev. Polyamory and Christianity: Navigating Identity Gaps and Hegemonic All Rights Reserved, Why Christians Need to Think about Polyamory, I often get asked, whats the next discussion that Christians need to have about sexuality and gender? My immediate answer is: polyamory, though the morality of, while polyamory is not necessarily marital. It's that we're doing that, which is fine. It's a first time for us to have multiple guests, if I had my way we would have five different faith leaders on a panel that would be recording right now, that'd be a little bit of chaos for a podcast, but it's just really nice to be able to at least get some variety of perspective here. That pie doesn't answer your question at all. I remember years ago, it's probably like 10 years ago or something, a friend of mine who did end up going into seminary after we went to college together and he is a pastor now, he talked to me about some statistic and I'm fudging these numbers, but it was something like 90% of pastors were raised in like a mega church type setting. That's not the norm in a lot of church settings. There is sometimes a hierarchy in which one person is the main connecting point and decides on the status of each party within the group. If I was trying to be a pastor at the seminary I'm at, and I was openly polyamorous, there would be a good chance, there's this thing called a [unintelligible 01:01:31]committee in the Lutheran church. So, when I do things that challenge people's concepts of what the Bible really says or doesn't say, you have to look a lot at the context of what each piece of writing; what was happening around it and not just take it face value. God does not call people into marriage as a way of simply pleasing themselves. It's like, I'd rather see somebody else make a mistake and not have to make it myself, but human nature usually means we do need to fuck up in our own ways as well. Austin:Yes, I just wanted to say to JD that there's an article I should point him to that just was written by a friend of mine, they're at Clairmont, that is right in that area so it's something that you should be aware of. It's that we're doing that, which is fine. Not every new idea or invention serves to further humanity. I know there is a specific site and I'm not finding it specifically in my Google search, but it seems there's a lot of similar sites. They're still kind of preaching the, "What can I do without getting run out my job? How is the Christian church handling shifting values around sexuality and non-traditional relationships? J.D. Polyamory and Christianity. The Rise of Polyamory Curtis Erskine | Bio In this article, I want to describe what, for many, is a surprising shift: an acceptance within some Christian circles of polyamory (simultaneous romantic or sexual relationships with multiple partners). Christians can easily overlook their own relational sins while pointing the finger at non-binary relationships. Maybe it's all crap, I don't know. : All right. That's usually done not with integrity from my point of view, but that's the claim on the one side. Figure out how much you can shift the system from within and whether if you're just going to be beating your head against the wall. That gets us past a lot of the old testament and there's some new testament passages some things that are just bad translation and other things I could go on. They ask him the question like, "Who of these would be her husband in heaven, or in the kingdom of God?". He currently contributes work to iBelieve, Crosswalk, and supports various clients through the platform Upwork. Oh, my God. Again my mind is blown. In other words, Scripture is outdated and insufficient so far as modern ideals are concerned. The big kind of claim that they're making is that God's love is very polyamorous in nature. It's not a cohesive document and in fact, it's often in dialogue with itself. While marriage might not be involved, partners within a polyamorous union might live with one of their romantic partners, or both/all of them, or none of them. When we enter into marriage, we do hope to be satisfied, and yes, we want someone who cares to satisfy our needs. Rev. Rev. It would be hard to say how widely that is being shifted, but I'm part of trying to actively break down what I think is harmful sexual ethics. Its origins are not really something that comes from any of the passages directly from Jesus or from other places. Polyamoryrelationships with multiple, mutually consenting partnershas a coming-out party. No one person can speak for all of Christianity, there are lots of different flavors and varieties, but even within each denomination there's actually very little discussion around polyamory in most churches. Austin Adkinson, a Methodist pastor in Seattle, and J.D. Either I think more extreme camp or either people interpreted as like, clearly, this is what God established. Christianity in polyamory Hey everyone, first time poster. It is a very useful guide, but it is not an instruction manual. 31 AnjelGrace 1 yr. ago I love this. Their relationships might involve members of both sexes or just one. We had a guest speaker come to our school and he was a former Catholic priest who was giving this presentation on what the bible really says about homosexuality and talked about things like how Jesus never says anything about it and in fact perhaps even helped to cure the centurion's servant boy who at that time most likely would have also had a sexual relationship with him. Christianity and polyamory. Jase: I'd love to talk more about that at some point. Austin: They forced the mass circumcision on them and then while they're recovering from the surgery, they come in and kill all of them. Is that a word? We have these ideas of what Christianity is within our culture and within western literature. Marriage is therefore not just a piece of paper, but a private, public, and divine statement. But he was one of the only people in my entire extended family I actually respected. J.D. I know, right, I don't think of the burning bush, I think of something else. I could say a lot more about that little stuff. Thank you so much for coming and talking to us about all this, it's been awesome, I've been looking forward to this episode for quite a while now. Mostly, I think a lot of more progressive clergy would have similar thoughts, but don't really have the courage to jump in and put themselves on the line for advocating something that's going to shake the boat. J.D. Super exciting I've been wanting to do this topic with some actual theologians and pastors as guests for quite a while, so I'm really excited that we've found not just one but two people who are interested in coming on the show to discuss it. For me, it's not even the finding the Bible passages that might justify it. "Peace be with you! Polyamory is consensual and not rooted in deception (such as having an affair or bigamy/polygamy). Austin: I don't know anything about that particular statistic. I feel like that actually leads into my next question pretty well, which is that, as you know, we recently recorded a fan in pretty silly episode talking about instances of polyamory in the Bible, which mostly turned out to be maybe troublesome and maybe nonconsensual polygamy. At least from my experience when I came out as polyamorous to the church leaders, to people that made sense to talk to them about, my youth know that I'm polyamorous and because they asked questions and that's fine. Is the Church Ready to Respond to 'Christian' Polyamory? We offer all kinds of different incentives for different Patreon tiers at $5 a month, you get access to our private Patreon only Facebook discussion group, which has so far turned into a really great community of people who supported each other and listen to each other in difficult times. We've been training her. Christian Bale. There's a lot of other horrible things about that story, but I'm not even going to go into. Get access to ad-free episodes, monthly video discussion groups, and more by becoming aPatreon supporter! A Christian Response to Polyamory - PENews But this is not an example of polyamory. Jase: We'll finally know, I haven't read the whole thing. Mechelke: You start to think, "That's kind of erotic and yet it's evangelical." When difficult or painful emotions are magnified in the same way, it can be exponentially more painful.. Christianity and polyamory. Questions. : Christianity - Reddit Emily: I saw both of you shaking your head at that, so, what was that about? A change from that to, "I value consent, and I want to treat this person in front of me as a subject and not an object.". She ends up during her life being married to all the brothers because that's what you would do. Whoa, that's impressive too. Like Shakespeare, people know these quotes from Shakespeare. Just straight for the jugular. Mechelke to dive into the tricky topic of polyamory and Christianity. Would you want someone interacting with you only for personal gain? With that in view, here are a few more questions that Christian leaders should wrestle with: Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender 2023. J.D. Christianity in reference here. In our idea, what Christians in the West think about sin is very unbiblical at least in my opinion. Now that we understand polyamory, and how that differs from Gods design for Christian relationships, lets discern how we can respond to this new-age way of thinking. My partner and I have been together for 7 months now. Measure it? This week's sponsor is Quip. Proponents of Christian Polyamory are using the biblical text to open a path for LGBTQ and polyamorous persons into the church without the confession and repentance of sin required by Scripture. Until recently, history consistently denied the idea that, within Scripture, any sexual relationship outside heterosexual marriage has Gods blessing, on the grounds that such relationships are counter to his revealed pattern for marriage., Only attitudes have changed, not Gods stance or his Word. Emily, I told you there are many instances of mass circumcision in the Bible. Jase:Maybe you'd have to drive a little further to go to church now than you used to, but hopefully that will be worth it. The same distinctions are made between lovers because our human nature leads us to categorize. We can talk about that after. All right, with that, let's get to the interview. We get those screwed up. If you would like to get in touch with us, send an email to info@multiamory.com or send us a message on Twitter, Facebook or Instagram. Sorry, please go ahead. is if we think that this whole document is just like, this is how you should live your life, then we're going to get into some confusing territory. It includes love, romance, and emotional commitment between more than 2 people. Gosh, I have like five billion things that I want to say in response to that. Something that Jase and Dedeker have both said to me is even if you're not practicing religion, it seems like there is like a need for community and that space still. So, beyond sexuality just in general, all of the things that are better understandings are things that have come up. Jennifer Martin: 'Both My Faith and My Polyamory Are Important to Me'. Yes, it's like, we're past the point of having this individual identity that is separate from God to a certain regard. Husbands and wives are called to submit to one another in the ways God has ordained. There are groups and individuals who are fine with doing away with the nuclear family. If you read the Bible as an instruction manual that would say, your sister gets rapes so you go and kill the rapist and everybody else that's in close proximity to that person. It's a great resource if something really difficult is happening in your life or your relationships and you just want a place to find advise or to support or encouragement or just someone to listen, its been great for people for that. The note of it being a complicated document. The other person is the reason. We've moved past on that, but the forefront of the debate is around sexual orientation. I'm Austin Adkinson, I am a United Methodist pastor in Seattle. This love, which is greater than any sexual or romantic love, puts others before ourselves. Polyamory is when the extramarital affairs purportedly involve emotional love. Austin: Change is slow and change in church is slower. "We really respect the Bible by giving it the attention and the study and understanding the nuance in it by giving it that kind of respect. You can also leave us a voicemail at 678 M-U-L-I-I 05. The big kind of claim that they're making is that God's love is very polyamorous in nature. That is certainly a value that a lot of Christianity has held on to. J.D. Single people are sometimes prone to idolize and romanticize the idea of marriage. No, I would say it's absolutely a minority viewpoint within most of Christianity today. People around them being awful to them and trying to figure out how to scrap and survive. Ive really liked it. In a recent article on Insider.com, self-described dirtbag Christian Jennifer Martin defends her polyamorous lifestyle as being compatible with her faith. It's funny because there are other religious teachings like writings by Siddhartha and stuff that are more of an instruction manual. Having multiple partners definitely offers multiple sources for emotional support and physicality. Spouses commit idolatry when they seek sexual fulfillment outside of their marriages (adultery). There's actually a lot of what the Bible is about and that's how I prefer to live. In the Bible, virginity is only ever referred to women and that's only because virginity is an economic thing in the ancient world. Dedeker: Yes, you're going to get used to the goat and the whole animal sacrifice thing Emily. Am I giving myself away? Because every denomination, then there are a lot of churches that are non-denominational as well. And what the heck is a sword drill? Well, Austin, J.D., thank you so much for taking the time to join us on the show today. What Is Polygamy and Why Did God Allow It? There's a lot of Christianity in general, and a lot of assumptions about what it means to be Christian that have come through the historical thing and rather than what Jesus was really focused on. Austin Adkinson is the pastor of Haller Lake UMC in Seattle. I think Jesus' answer would be pretty similar. There's this, the polyamorous Christ is this new term that's gaining traction which I'm all for. Then at $15 a month, you get all that and youre basically our best friend. So, whose needs come first? Can we learn from other people's lessons? Jase: It's actually very related to a conversation the three of us were just having the other day because we've been recording some episodes for a new podcast that we're putting together where we're reading through the whole Bible. Arent children who grow up in poly families bound to face relational harm?